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Being an SEO Pisses People Off – FACT!

By Goosh | February 22, 2010

On many occasions when I take on a new client I have to introduce myself to the other specialists involved in the contract:  the web developers.  We don’t build websites ourselves as we like to specialise on the SEO and results.  Unfortunately, due to this stance, the introduction can go either one of two ways…

If the web developers are clued up and have worked with several agencies in the past they have more often than not built SEO requirements into their CMS and its plain sailing from here on in (if you are one of these companies – I love you – I really do!)

Unfortunately, more often than not it is the latter; this is where I want to turn round and run as fast as I can into the nearest wall in some vain attempt at knocking myself out cold so I don’t have to go through the same shitstorm that happens every time.

I’m Not Doing This For Fun – It Actually Needs Done

As an SEO you will know that there are on-page elements that need 100% necessary changes to them to ensure success for your campaign ala SEO 101.  Whenever I sit and look at a client’s site I create a checklist of what needs optimised (titles, copy, interlinking etc) and check whether this can or cannot be done via their CMS.  I then make my suggestions and contact the web developers with a list of proposed changes.

At this stage I am being helpful with screenshots, coloured boxes highlighting elements and any reference material to help them along with their job – it may come across as condescending, but I am actually saving you time going looking for the relevant info.   It has also cost me time so please be grateful and don’t do what I know that you are going to do…

Nobody Likes Criticism – Some Just Take It Better Than Others

This is where it starts winding people up, and when people get wound up with no excuses they retreat to a corner and start flaying their little arms everywhere.

Let’s face it – Most web developers are precious arseholes.  I know – I used to be one!  Like most people, they hate their work being criticised and they hate being told they have done something wrong.  This is the reason that I know it will be like pulling the proverbial gorilla tooth because consistent scenarios rear their ugly head at this stage:

When these scenarios come up I simply put on a pair of my whitest Slazenger shorts, my best Adidas t-shirt and my most comfortable Puma trainers – It’s time for Email Tennis! The never ending process of serves and counter-serves to try and get simple, fundamental solutions in place to give the client their best shot at success in natural search.

It Shouldn’t Be This Hard – But It Is!

Having already pissed off the web developers and had to reiterate to the client that I know what I am doing by quoting past successes as testament to the fact I am not one of my arch-enemy bullshit SEO’s, it’s time to sit back and take stock of what you need.

I find writing up a list of ALL changes and breaking them down to help them get their heads around it really does help both parties.  Let’s face it; they are going to drag their knuckles and arses across the floor like a bunch of Neanderthals at a 50 IQ Point or Less Celebration Ball to try and save some respect so it is best to head them off at the pass and give them no excuse for not telling them – I am now the enemy so I have to back myself up.

Let’s face it, nobody likes to be told their work is shit, but I can guarantee you that no-one likes to be called a liar – irrespective of what side of the “heated conversation” you are on.  I’ve had web developers call me a charlatan, tell me that I am no better than someone selling a cure for a problem that doesn’t exist and that SEO is just one big lie to extract money from uneducated businesses.  Believe me, I’ve had it all – and I am sure you have too.

Wind Ya Neck In – Shit Just Got Real!

As you can expect, this is where I generally turn into a bit of an arse myself.  Having been a web developer in a previous life I am able to go back to a client and give them an honest opinion, based on experience, on what the web developer can and cannot do (within the limitations of looking at their CMS).

I am in the fortunate position of being able to cut through the crap, the waffle and bamboozling that a work-shy web developer will use to his advantage.  I don’t know everything, but I know enough to smell the nasty aroma of bullshit.

Some of the best bullshit I have heard from web developers have included:

And the one that I love the best as it always keeps coming up:

It’s at this point that I roll my sleeves up and get amongst it myself – I love a bit of coding, especially when it proves a liar wrong.  Irrespective of whether they have the defence of not knowing as much as me I go by the simple rule – If you don’t know, then don’t profess to know!  If you aim your bullshit in my general direction nine times out of ten you will get the proverbial bitch slap of an e-mail with a loving kiss for your trouble.  And if I don’t know, well, I’m humble enough to admit it and go off and find out.

It’s Worth Pissing People Off

There is no better feeling than battling the shit that comes with the territory and making a success of a client’s campaign.  Perseverence, insistence & generally digging your heels in when you know you are right helps you prove your point; achieving thousands of new 1st page rankings for an e-commerce site after months of this bullshit – all from a provider that professed to have already supplied an SEO solution in the first place.  Dicks.

In this whole process, the only people who lose out are the web developers themselves as they have proved they can’t cut it and simply won’t receive referrals on the back of the success I achieve.  I’d rather send it to someone who actually has a fucking clue!

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  • Being an SEO Pisses People Off – FACT!

Topics: Business Bullshit | 56 Comments »

Posted on 22 February 2010 by Kev Strong

An online marketing consultant based in Newcastle upon Tyne, England. Through his SEO Blog, Goosh covers the usual rants, raves and annoyances in the SEO industry.

has written 2 articles for SEO Bullshit

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  • http://www.seo-creative.co.uk/ jo

    Great post exactly the situations that always arise when dealing with 3rd party web designers/developers you do get the odd company who will embrace the changes and even recommend you to other clients but these a few and far between

  • Robert

    Ah… one of the fantastic reasons I love my development teams. They just do as I ask. Guess it comes as a benefit when they're all half my age! *sigh*

  • http://www.eknowwaytions.com/ Sascha

    that's the way it is! but besides the devolpers it is often the project managers that tend to mess things up. at least in my experience. i received a call the other day saying something like “hey…we're going live by the end of the day. so…what seo stuff should we do? some keyword metatags uh?”. thx to my education I did not hung up all of a sudden – I finished laughing first and then hung up ;-)

  • http://www.vanvessum.nl/ Steven van Vessum

    Hahaha awesome post dude! Unfortunately it sounds very familiar.
    Have you ever lost clients because of webdevelopers that just put their heels (and head) in the sand?

  • http://www.greatwebsitesblog.com/ Barry

    Hear hear! Too many times have I had to paddle upstream because clueless web developers churned out a site that seemed aimed at being as SEO UNfriendly as humanly possible. Standard excuse: “it was not a customer requirement.” GTFO.

  • http://www.goosh.co.uk/ Kev Strong

    Cheers Steven,

    Thankfully we have not lost any clients due to web dev conflicts. If anything, our previous results with other clients has shone through and earned one of our prefered partners a contract based on my clients previous experiences anyway.

    Like I say in the article, I refer based on quality – and eventually quality is noticed above bullshit.

  • cmarval

    I can relate to the skepticism by developers. Most of the SEO folks we've come accross continue to deflect by pitching conversion issues (i.e. “too many steps in the checkout process”) which are clearly not related to traffic.

  • http://www.seo-creative.co.uk/ jo

    That is true, I've had that internally as well where the project managers see SEO as an afterthought. It is often the people running the project that disregard the web developers and designers as I was sure in one of my last companies the designers would blatantly not do any best practice SEO methods purely to piss off the PMs as when I sat down with them to go through a project they were surprisingly knowledgeable

  • http://twitter.com/WebsterJ WebsterJ

    The thing that always gets me is when programmers get flat busted lying through their teeth, management knows it, and does nothing. WTF!?

  • http://www.jaankanellis.com incrediblehelp

    LOL, great article! I know we all have been in that boat before where the designer is telling one story to the business owner and you have to go and explain how it is not true. Very frustrating.

  • http://sebastians-pamphlets.com/ Sebastian

    So WebDev folks take care of conversions and SEOs just produce SERP traffic? Dude, hide as fast as you can.

  • cmarval

    Absolutely not. What I mean is that one can't happen withouth the other and hiding behind conversion problems when the SEO can't deliver on traffic causes skepticism.

  • http://sebastians-pamphlets.com/ Sebastian

    SEO'ing a landing page that will not convert coz the WebDev implemented a gazillion of hoops a punter has to jump thru isn't worth a try. Dude, get real.

  • http://sebastians-pamphlets.com/ Sebastian

    Just to clarify, I'm just another Web developer who has gathered a little SEO knowledge during a few years of experience in the field.

  • cmarval

    I'm not being naive. I realize that getting a bunch of ticket holders to the gate for a cancelled concert is not going to work. However, I thought the job of an SEO was primarily to bring the right people to the gate.

  • http://sebastians-pamphlets.com/ Sebastian

    You're dead wrong.

  • http://www.SEOConsultants.com/ pageoneresults

    “Errors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional! 69 Errors, 9 warning(s)”

    Talkin the talk I see. How about puttin' some freakin shoes on and walkin the walk eh? Flip flops ain't gonna cut it!

    Also, where the hell is your favicon? Nothing worse than seeing a default doc favicon when visiting a so called popular SEO destination.

    One of these days you'll learn. Did I just piss you off? If not, I'll be back to try again later. ;)

  • kev grant

    lol. funny, you nailed it completely..

    we took blog humiliation revenge on one particular numpty who pushed it too far a while back, Rishil commented on it at the time.

  • http://www.websterjorgensen.com/ WebsterJ

    @paegoneresults – if you're being sarcastic I apologize, but you seem serious.

    Almost every site ranking on the first page for “seo” has a ton of errors. Are they not good at SEO? In 2010, sweating HTML errors seems like a waste of time.

  • http://www.SEOConsultants.com/ pageoneresults

    I'm serious alright.

    “Are they not good at SEO?”

    Most of them are Surface SEOs and sure, some are good. For the most part, the top 50 results are filled with crap.

    “In 2010, sweating HTML errors seems like a waste of time.”

    You must be one of those link pimps? Or design type? You're surely not in the SEO space?

  • http://www.websterjorgensen.com/ WebsterJ

    How about Aaron Wall. His site is full of errors. Is he one of your “surface SEOs?” He even mentions validation being a white lie and bad advice -> “Validate your site. Why do I hate it? Most successful sites do not validate.”

    in this post: http://www.seobook.com/archives/001925.shtml

    Maybe he'll add favicon advice in an update of this post.

    I watch and see what works. I don't listen to dogma about SEO. Every time I look through a competitive, profitable set of SERPs I see hundreds of HTML errors. I've fixed XHMTL errors on sites and saw 0% improvement in performance.

    I'll giving you specific examples of why HTML errors aren't that big of a deal, and you keep saying stuff like “surface seo” and “link pimp.” Your logic is flawless.

    Nice favicon ;)

  • http://www.SEOConsultants.com/ pageoneresults

    “How about Aaron Wall. His site is full of errors. Is he one of your Surface SEOs?”

    Ya, how about that Aaron Wall and crew. One of the best resources in the industry and the damn site fails the basics. Sure, if you want to classify them as Surface SEOs, I'll agree in this instance. They made our Top 10 SEOs List…

    http://www.seoconsultants.com/validation/top10/seo

    “He even mentions validation being a white lie and bad advice.”

    Really? He uses those exact words? I'd like to see where to that I may opine on the issue.

    “Validate your site. Why do I hate it? Most successful sites do not validate.”

    Yada, yada, yada. I've heard it thousands of times over the years. It is a failed argument.

    “Maybe he'll add favicon advice in an update of this post.”

    I take it you're not aware of the importance of favicons?

    “I don't listen to dogma about SEO.”

    Dogma? Exactly what is dogma about following the long established protocols?

    “Every time I look through a competitive, profitable set of SERPs I see hundreds of HTML errors.”

    Ya, me too and, it pains me to see all those errors. Bunch of lazy arse Webmasters and Developers, that's all. And, most are clueless.

    “I've fixed XHMTL errors on sites and saw 0% improvement in performance.”

    Okay.

    “I'll giving you specific examples of why HTML errors aren't that big of a deal, and you keep saying stuff like “surface seo” and “link pimp.” Your logic is flawless.”

    Dude, if I used any other language I don't think the message would be understood. If you'd like, we can get really deep with the topic and we'll challenge this Disqus commenting platform. Ask that meathead who runs this site, he'll tell ya.

    http://www.seoconsultants.com/validation/histor…

    I don't know any Professional SEOs who have 29 Missing Alt Attributes. Do you?

  • http://www.huomah.com theGypsy

    OK shut the fuck up ok? This has butkis to do with the post at this point and I am tempted just nuke the comments – so don't waste yer time writing them – ok? U girls want to keep playing fucking footsies, get a room.

    Ed, don't start getting peeps worked up with the Compliant Code = SEO

    It's bullshit and I have that from the top… yeup…talked to Google engineers in the search quality dept. It isn't and there are not plans to do so in the near future. If anything, highlighting popular sites (which rank) that don't validate makes the point of that anyway.

    I shall write a post called 'Compliant Code = SEO is Bullshit' and then you can post all the comments you want on that one Edward… and 'meathead'? Carefully me boyo'… tread carefully. I am generally considerate of yer positions, but if ye want to start calling names…well… my interest may wane.

    Anyway, this post really isn't the platform for this discussion. I shall try and get to writing one that you can all have the validating argument on in the near future.

    Thanks guys… fun stuff, but its a bit of post jacking now.

  • http://www.justinparks.com Justin Parks

    I lost the favicon, its here somewhere, just …meh. Someday I might get round to it.

    And whats wrong with flip flops anway? I love flip flops.

  • http://www.websterjorgensen.com/ WebsterJ

    “Really? He uses those exact words? I'd like to see where to that I may opine on the issue.”

    Yes, read the article. He used those exact words. Go tell him how bad he is at SEO.

    BTW – you haven't give a single shred of actual evidence to back up your infatuation with validation. You've just dogged Aaron Wall, and basically any site dominating the SERPs with validation errors.

    Later troll.

  • http://www.huomah.com theGypsy

    Ok…last time… plz stop feeding Edward WJ… :0)

  • http://www.SEOConsultants.com/ pageoneresults

    Oh, I'm getting ready to reply to both of you here in a few. Just gathering my thoughts. Who is that WJ character? Troll? Me? OOH-RAH!

    Stop with the babysitting too! Isn't this place called SEO Bullshit? Isn't the title of this post “Being an SEO Pisses People Off”? And, didn't I just piss some people off? Well then – byte me! :)

    BTW, I didn't drag Aaron into this, that WJ schmuck did. You know I'm not going to sugar coat anything. He implied, I opined. We were talking about some SEO Bullshit, literally! ;)

  • http://www.websterjorgensen.com/ WebsterJ

    Sorry, I posted that last one before I saw the stop sign. I'm done. No hard feelings pageone. I hope we can all still be friends. xoxo

  • http://www.SEOConsultants.com/ pageoneresults

    “I shall write a post called 'Compliant Code = SEO is Bullshit' and then you can post all the comments you want on that one Edward.”

    Oooh, that should be a good one too as I've got one or two folks who have been doing some bench testing in this area, not that it needs to be done. ;)

    “And 'meathead'? Carefully me boyo'… tread carefully.”

    And here I thought you were some old hippie. I guess you never watched All in the Family? Meathead!

    “I am generally considerate of yer positions, but if ye want to start calling names…well… my interest may wane.”

    There was no name calling but if you wish to warn me, we can surely take that path. I don't care how big your sword may be, MINE IS BIGGER! :)

  • http://www.huomah.com theGypsy

    My point being that the comments have wandered a tad too far from the topic at hand. I am all for our little compliant code SEO discussion as ye well know, I just didn't want the poor fella that wrote his first post here to have his thoughts clouded over by a potential flame war – those suck ass and are bullshit too me brother.

    I shall be sure to write a nice little post on the whole validation as SEO thang so we can play it out there :0)

    Always good to see ya tho Arch'

  • http://www.propdata.net/ Robert

    While trying not to go off of the topic, I've rather fond of flip flops myself.

    I guess with all the trolling that's gone on, one thing is quite clear… being an SEO does piss people off. Possibly because there is so much (mis)information out there. Some might argue that your code should validate… others not ;) But if the SEO community (that's white hat, black hat and ass hat) can't agree, the basic client is going to be left rather confused and thinking that it's all snake oil.

    But trust me on the flip flops :D

  • http://www.seobegin.com/ Dean Cruddace

    Yes we lead the horse to water and we damn well want to know why it is not drinking. If it`s the wrong vessel to drink from, well you know the rest.

  • http://twitter.com/phil3ev Phil

    So true 2 hours for analytics tags lol, it can be frustrating but you just have to keep the end goal in sight and then prove them wrong. It is annoying how SEO's have to earn their credibility.

  • http://www.goosh.co.uk/ Goosh

    Glad the post opened a debat on validation etc. Even more so that it was muy post guest post on SEO Bullshit.

    I'll leave my thoughts on validation for SEO for any forthcoming posts, but please leave flip flops out of it – they are comfortable and annoying to other people. Just a pity I cant get much use out of them in the UK weather.

  • http://www.wristwatches.co.uk/ Shahid Awan

    Quality post…..”It’s at this point that I roll my sleeves up and get amongst it myself – I love a bit of coding, especially when it proves a liar wrong”….

    Custom page templates, Mod re-writes, w3c compliance, cross browser accessibility, coding in tables……

    Done this too many times over, its almost asif you know you'll have to code on every clients SEO engagement at some point… love this blog :-)

  • PokerSEO

    Ah good stuff! Please keep this blog going because this shit needs said! So glad someone finally has the balls to post this stuff

  • http://www.paulmcewan.com/ Paul McEwan

    “I’m Not Doing This For Fun – It Actually Needs Done”

    That's too bad. I hope that changes for you. I think everyone should like their career path.

    Your language, your negativity and anger are almost re-refreshing in the online soup of optimistic postings from entrepreneurs with their top 10 lists of why-to, how-to and tips in order to again SEO points with content.

    Which brings me to the real reason I comment.

    Choose who you work with. Remain happy :)

    I had a client tell me the design of the site I was going to build for him would attract traffic. I chose not to work with him.

    On the same note, I will not work with a client who believes SEO alone will create traffic.

    In fact, as a designer I don't sell SEO. I design and brand well constructed and developed websites. In my process, brand and design come last.

    Come at it from that angle. You sell to the client before a second rate developer gets a hold of them first and have the site developed via contracts THEN hire a real designer to do the branding (again) via contract.

    I know you don't want to get into that business but “It Actually Needs Done” and you're certainly not having any fun now.

  • http://europeanseo.org/taking-the-glove/ Davide Corradi

    Great post. I think plenty of us have walked the same path, from web developer to asking web developers to do, sometimes to be fair, counterintuitive stuff. However, I do agree with the motto “It needs to be done”. No point of having a pretty face site when nobody visits it. I was myself guilty in my web dev times of building sites entirely in Flash with no HTML navigation.

    I also agree with the “do it yourself” angle however sometimes you don't have accesss to the client site and all you can do is send the code and hope for the better.

    For me, everything was solved when I moved to an in-house team. My developers understand SEO and I think I understand web dev. We can agree and compromise about things without being too rigid. I guess that is the best case scenario.

    Moral of the story: Abandon client work and move in-house : )

  • kaydiane

    You have just reachined inside my head and pulled out the blog post that i have been umming and ahhing over whether to write for some time. from the email tennis to the bullshit reasons why something can't be done or will cost a silly amount to implement.

    Bravo!

  • http://www.search-marketing-answers.com/blog alanbleiweiss

    Paul

    I totally agree with “Choose who you work with. Remain happy” !

    Early on I used to give away my audits for free. Too many 3rd party developers said “we can implement those cheaper, without his involvement”. Only to hack away and fail miserably. Or because I gave them away for free, the end client would believe my position less often than their worthless developers or their “design agency”.

    Even after I started charging, 1 time I wrote a 15 page audit/action plan (the entire SITE was only about 12 pages mind you), replete with those screen-shots, how-to's and all the rest. Client gave it to their “design agency”. A week later, I got a call from the agency. “Yeah – uh – we got this SEO document. Can you explain this to us?” #HolyCrap

    Nowadays I ONLY work with clients who 1) respect my evaluation implicitly 2) Seek my advice on how to achieve goals their developers or designers try to weasel out of, and 3) ask me to fact-check every other participant's claim/recommendation/suggestions.

    Similar to Goosh, I have the blessing of having previously been a coder and a project manager on sites from 1 pagers up to mult-million $ sites of the highest complexity. So the bullshit radar is pretty well honed for these things.

  • http://www.search-marketing-answers.com/blog alanbleiweiss

    And Gypsy – please – create an “HTML Compliance = SEO Bullshit” article. I think Ed is a genius. A bit myopic in this case given all the touting HTML compliance is so critical to SEO, but a genius nonetheless. So I'm betting any article where we can all hash it out would be just awesome!

  • http://www.goosh.co.uk/ Goosh

    Glad you liked it Kay, it's been in my head for at least 3 years now so great to get it out on a blog! :D

  • http://www.goosh.co.uk/ Goosh

    “I’m Not Doing This For Fun – It Actually Needs Done”

    That's too bad. I hope that changes for you. I think everyone should like their career path.

    —–

    Apologies for the confusion Paul, I actually meant it in a “I'm not doing this for shits & giggles – it actually needs done”.

    Believe it or not I am actually a happy go lucky guy, but certain things wind me up to breaking point and SEO Bullshit is the perfect faucet. I turn it on and it just flows :D

  • http://www.firstpagegoogleresults.com/ home builder seo

    Have you contacted the blog owner about being taken off the list? … In fact, it was just a short rant that I wrote because I was pissed off!

  • http://www.firstpagegoogleresults.com/ home builders seo

    If I approach a web development company with my SEO changes, I'm either embraced with open arms or run as fast as I can into the nearest

  • michael_housebook

    I totally agree. I am actually web developer and because I know that I am not an expert in SEO I am quite happy for someone to help me. I love to see some results and more successful website gets the better I feel. What I find as worst part is dealing with clients who does not beleive in proper web devlopment/design and SEO. My boss told we missed the train with SEO and it is too late to do anything now. What and idiot… I tried to explain whole thing many time but he still thinks he is an expert.

  • http://www.firstpagegoogleresults.com/ seo for home builders

    no matter what you did, it wouldn't be good enough … You won't piss people off – and your site conversions will show it. …

  • http://www.claytowne.com/beats-digging-ditches/ Design Blogger Dude

    Awesome rant. I feel your pain. For me though it's the opposite. I develop websites but I know SEO like nobody's business. So all my websites are built from the ground up with SEO performance as a primary goal. So I occasionally have to beat down some cut-and-run SEO sweatshop who's convinced my client that their website is not optimized. Worse yet are the “legit” companies who give a false report. I had one client who was told that their website was not indexed (not true, whole site was indexed), couldn't be spidered (totally not true), was not ranking for its most important keywords (we were top ten for all) and my images were missing alt tags ( not true). I was so fucking furious I demanded a conference call with the CEO of the company and the marketing firm that hired them. His answer? “I'm not going to get into an argument about the validity of the report…my team generated it and I stand by it” WTF? Stand by what? A bunch of lies? So that's my two cents on the matter. I have to deal with both clueless territorial web designers (when I'm hired for SEO) and scumbag SEO's (when I'm hired to build a site).

  • http://www.seobloom.com/davide-corradi-seo/ davide corradi

    classic! “I’m Not Doing This For Fun – It Actually Needs Done” is my motto!!!!

  • http://twitter.com/rhcerff Robert Cerff

    I can’t help but point out that if you’re quoting Wikipedia, SEO, design, conversions and usability are the least of your concerns.

    I’m just sayin’

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