F**king Writers

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Simple. 25c per word is chicken-feed! I charge $2 per word! And I'm always busy.

And no, it's not because I'm an opportunistic business person. (Although you certainly appear to fall into that category…) I charge that much because my clients feel that is my value.

And why is it you feel writers aren't entitled to earn a living? Do you know how long it takes to write 500 words of quality content? A long time! Hours! I finished some home page copy for a client the other day that took me 9 hours! For about 150 words. You call that easy money? Not on your life! When you've tried to earn a living as a professional writer (as I've done for the past 17 years), maybe you'll be qualified to comment. Right now, you're just blowin' hot air.

In any case, there's one thing you can be sure of. If you're getting 2-3 500-word pieces per hour, you definitely ain't getting quality. Who's gonna read crap that's just spewed out like that? Do you really believe that's a sustainable SEO approach?

You clearly have no more respect for your visitors than you have for your writers.

There are those that can make a quick buck while they study at UNI and they might be great. Then there are those that have finished UNI and now have a professional Life and run a professional Business. It's quick simply a choice. Availability, Time Management, turning up for Meetings when you need them and a positive approach and repeat performance is critical. Committed SEO writers have an abundance of high profile Websites and Clients.
Great SEO writers have a huge insight to not only writing great content, but being aware of the importance of who the Clients target audience is, and how and where to place Keywords with in the first 2 paragraphs…..

It’s a choice, and how you’re prepared to gain a great team.

@Glenn Dude, you've just proven my point so exactly that I've had to break anonymity.

Chip on shoulder. Check.
Lecture on how much better overpaid writers are. Check.
Fucked up rate. Check.

And regarding your “Pay peanuts, get monkeys” comment: Denver Post, Ph.D. candidates and Runner's Magazine writers are some pretty awesome monkeys bro. They do tricks and shit. 93% US Writers, by the way (13/14). We all hop on chat and work throughout the day….just like real people at an office.

I saw your tweet about how you think that this post is just for 'buzz.' Really? With no outbound links? Author pseudonym? Nope. You're just pissed that I've outed overpaid writer bullshit. I also saw your followers tweet about how they are INDEED scared of ODESK and writers who work F/T. I suspect that's the reason for your heated response. THE GUILTY SCREAM THE LOUDEST.

Sorry man, with ODESK, it's game over for the overpriced copywriters. You can scream and cry all you want about how your writings are so much better but you can't argue with the portfolios of the 40+ writers who applied for the gig. A quick instruction letter tells them to drop keywords into the paragraphs and other SEO instructions. They reply, “Okay,” and it's done. That's really hard. Don't start believing your own BS….especially in a room full of SEOs.

Original relevant content generates natural inbound links which equals a sustainable long-term SEO strategy. Don't take my word for it, Cutts talks about it.

I did have a few 'pro' copywriters apply for the gig and they all seemed angry, tired, and cranky. I didn't hire a single pro. Thank God.

Thanks for your comments.

*chuckle* Very funny. Breaking anonymity… how noble.

1) I agree that ODESK makes it harder for overpaid writers. Yet still I have no concern about my future. Funny that!

2) Had I any concern about being outed for being an overpaid writer, I might be pissed.

3) Scream and cry? Chip on shoulder? Really? Is that what it's called when someone disagrees with you? I'll have to remember that one.

4) “A quick instruction letter tells them to drop keywords into the paragraphs and other SEO instructions…” Glad to hear you're educating your writers so thoroughly on the finer points of SEO copywriting.

5) Trust me, I've seen more writer's portfolios than I care to remember, so I'm sure I could, indeed, argue with the 40+ that were submitted to you.

6) Don't believe my own BS? How ironic; I was tempted to offer you the very same advice.

7) Of course original relevant content generates natural inbound links. That’s my point exactly! “Original” doesn't just mean “written from scratch”. And relevance isn't determined only by subject matter choice, keywords, etc. In fact, that's merely how Google tries to assess things. The real driving force behind links is ACTUAL originality and ACTUAL relevance. To readers. Sausage factory content is largely thoughtless and fundamentally unoriginal (whether it's written from scratch or not). It's certainly not all badly written, but it's never thought-provoking or truly interesting. And in the absence of those qualities, it will never generate many natural editorial links, and those links will never naturally come from reputable, quality sites. That's why it's an unsustainable SEO practice. Don't take my word for it; Cutts talks about it. ;-)

8) I'm sorry your experience with pro copywriters wasn't good. But did you stop to wonder why that might be? Perhaps your arrogance and total lack of respect and understanding? I'd say that may have played a part…

9) “Ph.D. candidates and Runner's Magazine writers” Oh dear, I take back everything I’ve said! I've seen plenty of highly qualified people who can't write. And I've seen plenty of published writers and journalists who can't write.

10) “Fucked up rate”? Once again, to intelligent, forward thinking business people, copywriting is an investment, not a cost. It's all about value and return. We're talking business fundamentals here… Don’t take my word for it; Ogilvy talks about it. And Carlton. And Sugarman. And…

11) You didn't hire a single pro? What a laugh! That's only because you couldn't afford one, and they wouldn't want to work for you even if you could. Fortunately, there are plenty of respectful, informed clients out there, so there’s more than enough business to go around. Even for those of us with “fucked up rates”.

Ultimately the market decides, mate. I've been a professional writer for 17 years. People have been paying me pretty good money that entire time. Do you honestly believe this would be the case if I weren't delivering value?

How long do you think sausage-factory content will last?

So, to those reading without checking the links, I confess: it's my tweet linked to above in regard to 'indeed [being] scared of ODESK'.

For the record, I'm not sure that recognising a competitive threat makes me 'scared', Garry. But if that's how you roll, making enemies where none existed, then I guess that's your right. I also tweeted this (http://twitter.com/OtherAndrew/status/14739156391) which basically sums up my position that not all the others are crap, just that they are not placing enough value on their time. This means that the process begins whereby those who do value their time, like Glenn, have to justify it to clients. However you look at it, this is an undesirable position for professional, full-time writers to be in.

Is it, in fact, a deserved position though? I could argue both ways. But it's funny to note that all the people who ask 'how the hell can a company like Porsche charge so much for its cars?' aren't the ones buying them. Those walking into their dealerships have already answered that question themselves – the ones actually asking it are those driving Hyundais.

In this case, Glenn is (note I'm not even putting myself in that category) Porsche. You want a car that gets you from A to B, so a Porsche looks expensive. So you drive your Hyundai around and shout derogatory comments out the window at Porsche drivers and say things like 'what sort of a wanker would drive one of THOSE?' The answer is someone who appreciates quality, and is willing to pay for it.

I'll concede that there may be diminishing marginal returns to your investment in copywriting, but that doesn't mean there's not a place for those who want to charge more for a better quality product.

[By the way, see what I did there? I didn't just put forward my argument without grammatical errors and with particular keywords (think churning out copy at $30 an hour), I illustrated my point with a simple, creative illustration with which my audience can likely identify. It engages the audience at a deeper level. Sure, it's not a portfolio piece but I typed it in five minutes. For that, my clients pay extra]

Yes, the game is changing. But I'm not scared at all.

Love the brutal honesty of the post.

I do freelance content writing and article writing but I don't rip into the budget. I generally aim for anywhere between $7 – $10 for an 800 – 1000 word post.

I may be selling myself a bit short but I realize that I'm able to write a 1000 word post in 20 – 30 minutes. This adds up and I think people are really appreciative that I work for a reasonable rate and deliver quality content.

Writing can be a business but just like any good business, you don't want to gouge your clients.

I guess I sorta get the point of this blog. Everyone needs to vent. But I think it's really just a ploy to attract links, erm, I mean, attention … like the kid at the back of the room who never stops acting up, drives the teacher batty and generally distracts everyone in the room from learning anything valuable.

But I digress. You got your way and we're all here, aren't we? ;-)

Solid writing skills are tough to come by come by, solid SEO copywriting skills even tougher. It's supply and demand. You've not “outed” anyone here. Nor is there a conspiracy among us to keep people like you (or your team??) at $0.25/word. We all have to start somewhere. And at least in this part of the world, that's called the free market, and I plan to remain a part of it.

I suspect your “anti-pro writer” stance is costing you though. Like, why so bitter, dude? And more to the point: you attract what you focus on. So if you dedicate an entire blog to shitting on your colleagues … well, it can't be good for your rates even if you think you're being all anonymous and sneaky-pants.

You've got an edge. I'll give you that. Perhaps try using it to help instead of blowing spit balls.

Sooooo if you write a negative post about writers they will write back for free?!?

Good link bait tactic ;)

[...] I’ve argued (among other things) that the use of sausage-factory content is an unsustainable SEO practice (see comments — LANGUAGE W…. [...]

You must have talent coming out of your fingers like lightening. I've been writing for about 25 years. There is no way I could write a GOOD 1000 word post in twenty minutes. I have to edit everything I write.
In fact I've written a couple of posts about A-List bloggers who not only condone, but advise quickie, bad English writing – not that you do this. I'm simply making a point about the terrible state of blog writing.

I'd like to disagree on the whole content being King thing.

I agree, it seems people around the world feel that anyone providing a service should do it for free and be the best in the world.

The people looking to take advantage of others are the people that don’t want to pay what someone’s time is worth.

I read this and changed the word “writers” to “SEO's” then for fun tried “lawyers” and “builders” and even “plastic surgeons”. It all fits, strangely enough.

If your price range is low enough then your expectations must be as well and if you have astronomical expectations then be prepared to pay the same in the rates. Either way you have to justify what your paying to yourself before it even becomes an issue with the supplier or service provider.

I have just stumbled on this argument but as an SEO content manager I can see both sides of the argument, re writing poduct and category pages to be unique for SEO is hardly worth paying hundreds and thousands of dollars or pounds. You do get what you pay for but you don't always need clever ponderings or catchy unique statements sometimes you just need decent content that is descriptive and unique.
However sometimes you need a better quality of content and for this I would consider paying extra the fact of it is if you need it pay for it if not the some writers rates are ridiculous! We needed extra copywriters to get some articles done short notice I contacted a pro that had been recommended who wanted to charge 8 days work (at £300 a day) for very simple articles.
I do find writers should be more flexible but honest, I can do it for this much but it won't be my best quality you could get yourself some quick and easy work which usually is edited by a content manager such as myself as well as securing potential work in the future that may be better paid. It is your choice!

this article is valued at 800$

Murlu, best case scenario.

You charge $10 per 1000 words, which you bust out in 30 minutes. If you work 8 hours a day Mon-Fri and never take a vacation, you make roughly $38,000 a year. Then you have to take out self-employment taxes ($~$9500) and health care (~$250 month if healthy) if you wish to buy yourself some.

After you subtract that, you have a salary of $25,500. Still gotta pay for housing, groceries, utilities, etc. At that rate, most copywriters – especially experienced ones – would do better to work at an agency.

So, King Douche, that's why we copywriters charge as much as they do. You may not be able to afford it or understand why you should, but plenty of clients out there still “get it.”

I have to stand on the other side of the fence on this one. While you may get lucky in a pay cheap path, the lions share of content I've ever seen from cheap rates has been crap.

And personally, for my direct clients, I get anywhere from $125 an hour to $250 an hour so if a writer wishes to charge that much, if their track record validates highest quality content, then I have no qualms about bringing them into the fold. Except I just pass the cost directly onto the client and don't take a cut.

Because I'm not concerned about having to squeeze production line people so my company can make more money. It's a bullshit corporatocracy greed mongering mentality that makes me vomit.

For the record, another reason I don't hesitate at paying what some people consider rip-off rates for writing – it can take me anywhere from two to 10 or more hours to write a high quality blog article. Like the one I wrote this morning – that went hot at Sphinn in 1 hour and 28 minutes. It took me over 10 hours to write that article. I poured my heart into the process.

I have no desire to hire people to bang out two or three articles an hour for most of the content I am looking for. They're not well thought out, there's no research involved, they're too short to be considered a comprehensive article.

Alan, staying in context do you believe it would be practical and beneficial to spend $375k on product descriptions if you can find competent product description writers at 1/3 the cost? Some of the comments seem to suggest that it's not hip to shop around. I'm not interested in cookie cutter .o5 per word brokers for client content but shouldn't I shop around and try to save some money for other areas, like marketing. I would love an example of a site that has 80%+ of $2 per word content. I'm guessing it jumps off the page, invokes Jedi mind tricks, and lifts my wallet out all on its own. Also, I don't want to hear about $2 per word copy selling itself, there is no such thing as “if you build it they will come”. If you market and you have good content then they might come back is valid though. Personally, once we get past .35 per word I would have to get multiple estimates and samples. And for the Porsche comments; The last car I bought I purchased for $6k less than most dealers wanted and it had a better interior and sound system. The same exact product with better features for less money. I had a published author write for me once, I could have had text broker give me better copy for .022 per word so I'm not buying the whole, it must be good if it cost $2 per word or the inverse, it isn't any good if it didn't cost $2 per word.

David I highly encourage seeking out multiple bids and performing due diligence in any and all professional services situations. When you talk about $375k on product descriptions, I also need to understand what kind of products.

If it's designer handbags or auto parts or G.I. Joe action figures, given how poor most of the product descriptions are for those these days, you probably only need a couple paragraphs of highly refined content for each product. At $2 a word, it's perfectly justifiable if you are also investing time spent working on internal links to those individual product details pages, inbound links and all the rest that addresses the MayDay aspects of such deep content. Because even if you have to spend $200 on the writing for one product, you need to remember that such high quality content is going to get you that much more in long term sales volume.

If you're talking about product descriptions at the category level that's a different matter altogether. then we're talking about page upon page of content needed. And there too, if the work is good enough, the end result will be millions upon millions of dollars in sales.

So don't just throw around that $375k number as if it's an OMG amount. Without details, it's a shiny object that doesn't mean anything to me.

And I'm also not saying that just because someone charges $150 or $250 an hour it doesn't mean you're guaranteed the highest quality. Nor that if you only pay a fraction of that you're guaranteed crap content.

Just that I don't care about the hourly rate as much as you might because I look at the whole picture, all the aspects and factors, including long term ROI benefits.

A final factor for me is this – and this is where I break out of the mold. Just because there are people out there who might be stellar writers charging pennies on the dollar relatively speaking, does not mean they should be charging so little. Maybe they are doing so because they became lost in the fear that they HAVE to charge that little in order to compete with 20 cent an hour bids on ODesk.

So if I DON'T just hire them because “hey, it's not MY problem if they want to charge so little”, then from a universal energy perspective, my not hiring them could very well give them the courage to recognize that they don't HAVE to compromise their true value, and that could lead them to trusting that someone who IS willing to pay more will show up.

THAT is truly market forces at their finest.

Or they might wonder why they didn't get the job and lower their prices even more ;)
Once again I believe we are in agreement for the most part. I did not throw the $375k out there as an OMG. I asked if I should pay 1/3 the price for content of the same quality. It was sort of a leading question. Only someone as crazy as you would give the “wrong” answer. We differ a little there, I would pay 1/3 for the same quality, I would probably add in a little extra as a tip and suggest that they raise their prices but I wouldn't give someone else the job because this person was under-bidding. I think budget would prevent you from intentionally over-paying in many cases too. My real point was that you don't always get what you pay for, high dollar doesn't always equal high value. Some people have nothing of value to offer they are just good at sales.

Great comments, alanbleiweiss & DBlizzard. While I definitely believe that most of the time, you get what you pay for, I also believe there are exceptions to the rule. In your shoes, I'd shop around too, in the hopes of striking one of those exceptions. If quality were important to me, though, I would never go to oDesk & co. I'd see that as a waste of my time as the chances of striking gold in that environment are negligible. Instead, I'd investigate the freelance copywriters who are serious enough to have a website, and effective enough that it ranks. Within that range, I would judge each case on its merits, based mostly on their portfolio, but also a little on their testimonials. I'd never ask them to write samples just for me (without paying), because I'd assume their time is worth something. What's more, if I expect to be able to judge their quality from samples written for free, I'm sure I can judge their quality from their existing portfolio.

On the $375k question, I'm with alanbleiweiss: If you've just spent millions on market research, web design, IA, development, SEO strategy, user testing, product tracking, customer portals, logistics consulting, warehousing, and so on, surely the question of $375k would be viewed as a “will we see a return on this investment?” sort of way, not a “I wonder how much cheaper I can get this?” sort of way…

Hey Glenn, I didn't mean to imply they should create samples for free, samples of previous work or portfolio would have been a better choice of words :) As far as the $375k scenario, If you have a multimillion budget then I agree haggling over $375k for copy is probably not needed and I would consider that low any way. It's difficult to debate a scenario without all of the details. I guess one could ask if you have a 2000 product job then what is it worth per item to write detailed marketing copy? Once you put it that way then $175 per product is not that much if you really plan on selling the products.

Exactly right. Of course, the flip-side is that it's often *the agency* that's holding the creative purse strings, and their agenda can be very different from the client's. The client wants ROI from the product descriptions. The agency may not necessarily want ROI. It's quite likely that their margin is more important to them. Depends how much of a long-term view they have of the client…

It looks good,I have learn a recruit!Recently,I found an excellent online store, thenrtrsmitters.com XX are completely various, good quality and cheap price,it’s worth buying!

Why so down on Hyundais?

Here elaborates the cake-like.com matter not only extensively but also detailly .I support the write's cake-like.com unique point.It is useful and benefit to your daily life.You can cake-like.com go those sits to know more relate things.They are strongly recommended by friends.Personally

The post of content is very interesting and exciting. I learned a lot from here.The content from simple to complex, so all of you can come in . No matter you want to see what can be found.By the way ,there are some websites is also very wonderful,you can go and see.such as ajf 6

Wow, you're a serious bitch. They don't want to work for you they don't have to. You write it, idiot. The fact you can't might be a signal that the amount they request is worth the money they demand. Get another writer and quit your bitching.

LOL You did it for the LULZ and you did it well.. Spit beer out my mouth on that one. Well done.

Greatest thing about college students, they will do what you need done, for little cash, forget $2 a word, forget 25 cents a word, I'm talking 5-10 bucks an article, and its good content, writers like the above mentioned “anonymous” are the ones who will be sitting twenty years from now saying, “Where did all my work go?”

[...] F**king Writers [...]

I had a great laugh at this when I read it. Completely agree with every thing that you said. Too many people have been making quality writing a lost art form.

As far as the $375k scenario, If you have a multimillion budget then I agree haggling over $375k for copy is probably not needed and I would consider that low any way. It’s difficult to debate a scenario without all of the details.